ThumbJam Forum

Hi,
I noticed some exotic scales have wrong notes displayed.
Raga Nasamani for example is indicated like
E G G A B C C#
while the real notes played are
E G G# A# B C# D.

Just wondering if this is normal for some reason or a bug.

Thanks

Is it possible that that particular scale actually uses microtonal intervals? In that case, I would assume that ThumbJam has to use its best guess for the nearest Western note name.

I couldn't find that particular scale in the Scala library, and haven't had much luck googling a precise definition of it, so I can't elaborate further.

The main list of scales in TJ are not actually from the "Scala" library, they are primarily sourced from the database found here http://www.lucytune.com/scales/ . Pretty much all of those Indian scales in TJ are non-microtonal 12-tone scales, but I do use just temperament instead of equal (based on some other internet research). I've just been waiting for someone with real Indian music knowledge to come along and set me straight.... hasn't happened yet.

I think this particular case might be a display bug....

Wow, that site is a lot to take in. One of the best things about ThumbJam is the instant gratification of goofing around with an exotic tuning you never heard of before, and sounding like a virtuoso from some foreign musical land.

I've been waiting for someone to tell me the Indian scales are bogus and help me correct it. If you could provide a good list of popular/common scales and references to their correct definitions that would be fantastic.

Well, it's a tall order considering that I'm just starting at this. But there do seem to be good references and 'reality checks' available. I'm willing to have a go at it if it will do some good. But I don't really want to spin my wheels without purpose...

Starting off, not sure how we'll define "good" and "popular/common" in this context. But I can make a stab at sorting that out.

One immediate question comes to mind. As you may have heard, Indian ragas often have differing scales going up and down. Do you want to try to deal with that? Not sure how you'd go about it, but it would be darn interesting.

This could all get pretty deep. Perhaps we should have a private discussion. You have my email. I'll continue the research in the mean time. Cheers!

Gary

Ok, I don't know anything about ragas, but for your different scales up and down thing, couldn't one just use split screen with two different scales, the up and the down needed for a specific raga?
And, taking advantage of this conversation, Jesse, are we closer to seeing the custom-scale-building-on-the-go dream of mine coming in a future release? This would solve everything scalewise ; )

Theres always melodic minor and several others.

V-tilt would be a fun control for switching arbitrary scales keys.

Okay, I can't resist. Here's a first installment. Tell me what you think.

Common/popular Scales for Classical Indian Music
* There are two traditions here, Hindustani (North Indian) and Carnatic (South Indian). The Carnatic list is much longer.
* Both traditions define some basic scales and some “child” scales that vary by leaving notes from the basic scales out, by including different notes in ascending and descending form, and by “zig-zags” where the direction reverses.
* These lists include only scales that are identical up and down, showing only the ascending.
* I include all the basic scales, but only the child scales that I can document to be commonly used.
* Just Intonation is assumed.

Hindustani Basic Scales (Thaat)
Hindustani music calls the core scales Thaat, or That. These are sometimes referred to as ‘Raga so-and-so’. Strictly speaking, a raga in Hindustani is the scale plus a good bit of lore about ornamentations, approaches etc. Anyway…

This list comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaat. I’ve added numeric notations that are probably more familiar, and notes of alternate spellings. Note that you can get an entire article on each scale using the link. Interesting reading.

• Bilawal (alt. Bilaval) (=Ionian mode): S R G m P D N S' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1'

• Khamaj (=Mixolydian mode): S R G m P D n S' 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1'

• Kafi (=Dorian mode): S R g m P D n S' 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1'

• Asavari (=Aeolian mode): S R g m P d n S' 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1'

• Bhairavi (=Phrygian mode): S r g m P d n S' 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1'

• Bhairav: S r G m P d N S' 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 1'

• Kalyan (=Lydian mode): S R G M P D N S' 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1'

• Marwa: S r G M P D N S' 1 b2 3 #4 5 6 7 1'

• Poorvi: S r G M P d N S' 1 b2 3 #4 5 b6 7 1'

• Todi: S r g M P d N S' 1 b2 b3 #4 5 b6 7 1'

So it seems that all of Ravi Shankar et al, derives from just these 10 scales.

Btw, I couldn’t verify the existence of a ‘Bhairubahar Thaat’ as listed in current TJ. The only references on the web are from Western sources who apparently also tumbled onto Mr. Lucy’s effort. A good example of bad information proliferating on the net, it seems. The Wikipedia articles, though, seem to stand up well.

I'm going to bed (I *am* in Thailand). More tomorrow.

You're right, Mat. A split screen with different scales would allow that.

Also occurred to me that the non-linear scales could be made if the order of notes was not locked, so you could have 1, 2, 3, 2, 4 , 3, (or whatever)as you went upwards. Could be potent.